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As posted on a previous thread I asked Program Director John Bogouki to update me on the HRB entries as of January 2006. With that done here is what has happened since 1992. I chose 1992 as it was at least 10 years prior to the OBR and it also represented an "all time high " deer population, at least that was what we were being told at that time. And then again this past year we were told we might be approaching or at "an all time high" in deer population.

Remember the 2002 season was the first for OBR.

1992 195 entries.... base line

1993 148 entries.... -24%

1994 191 entries... -.02%

1995 210 entries...+.07%

1996 160 entries...-1.8%

1997 159 entries...-1.8%

1998 170 entries...-1.25%

1999 208 entries...+.06%

2000 213 entries...+.09%

2001 229 entries...+1.75%

2002 277 entries...+2.16%

2003 331 entries...+69.75%

2004 326 entries...+67.70%

These are actual numbers as of January 10 2006. Now folks can (and will) say that hunters today are more record book knowledgable and want entered. I can say that we have never turned a deer down that would make the minimum. We allow any deer taken in the past and by who ever brings it in to be scored.

What has happened is not only has the number of entries skyrocketd since the OBR, hunters have taken the same or slightly more bucks. Bucks have been saved and it shows in the past two years entries. If they aren't out there you can't kill them!

CutNShoot:

Graph this and post it on the site you don't allow me to post on anymore, or would that harm your figures?

2000-2004 +6.5%

1999-2003 +6.28%

1998-2002 +6.13%

1997-2001 +6.94%

Now let's get 5 year average before the OBR


1996-2000 +7.5%

1995-1999 -1%

1994-1998 -8.9%

1993-1997 -9.3%

1992-1996 -8.2%

There is a trend here, and it is not dead animals killed but the age structure of those animals.

Next few days we will have B&C entries to compare and hopefully the P&Y.
 

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Excellent, Joe!!!!!!!!!!

Thank You!!!!!!!!!!




Folks, wait until you see the increase in the numbers of Boone and Crockett bucks that have come in. John did this for me earlier this summer when I was writing the trophy article and it is very telling. I've tried to find this sheet but think that I threw it away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
five years of buck kill comparison:

2004- 2000.... 2000 bucks 44,621....2004 54,768 buck kill 21% increase in antlered harvest.

2000-2004 HRB entries.... 2000 "213"....2004 "326" percentage of change 62%!!!

2003-1999....1999 bucks 46,371....2003 49,533 buck kill 8% increase in antlered harvest

1999-2003 HRB entries....1999 "208"....2003 "331" percentage of change 65%!!

Check the numbers!!!

The increase in harvest does not compare in percentage to older age bucks harvested and entered into the record book.

Dean I believe you have access to all the numbers I have here and more. This could be VERY interesting to people if they have figures to compare that are real.

We need the B&C entries and P&Y....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
HRB entries.........

Let me be very clear, when I reference a year of HRB entries it is ONLY the deer killed in that year, not the entries. Most years we have entries from numerous years. I would expect quite a few entries from 2004 scored this year also. the numbers will change.

2004 entries are ONLY deer killed in 2004.....and so on.
 

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Wow. GREAT statistics!!!! I knew OBR had influenced my results......just had no idea how much through the entire state it had also influenced. Proir to OBR I had taken 1 bow buck 140+ back in 1995 (started deer hunting in 1984).................but now in the last 3 out of 4 years of OBR I have been able to harvest a 140+ bow buck.

Results are in the pics.............

2002 Bow Buck



2003 Bow Buck



2005 Bow Buck



Now I guess I have "hard collected data" that confirms this is not isolated or "spotty" in the state...........it's everywhere.

Now I need to be armed with all of the data I can have when they open up the doors for feedback on the OBR...........and a direction of who will actually listen to what I have to say that may have an influence on keeping it in place.

EXCELLENT post jbwhitetail!!!
 

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Scarlet Dew...Nice bucks! The racks are not only nice but the bodies of those deer look large also. What were the weights on each deer?
 

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Beautiful Bucks

Nice deer Scarlet. That 2005 buck is a beauty. Are you also practicing "QDM", or similar, on your land?? Did you take all 3 on the same land???
 

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2002 Field Dressed #240 (looked like an NFL linebacker!!, measured 34 inches around his throat up by the jaw bone)

2003 Field Dressed #198

2005 Field Dressed #202

OBR is has just been amazing to watch and participate in. What a ride so far......hoping it will not end.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Scarlet....

You can bet that I , Dean and others will be here when the OBR is again up for review. We will keep you updated on when where and who to send comment to.

If folks want it to stay it will, if the majority want it to retrun to a two buck(or more) limit it can do that also.

Numbers of buck harvest have been posted and they do not lie, we have killed more bucks in recent years. The IDNR has said we had a "growing herd" hence more deer to choose from. But htere is nop data to support a trend in the increase in HRB entries we have seen the past two years.

Remember few 2 1/2 year old deer will grow 140" antlers........ but that 3rd year....

And the OBR started 2002, 2003 got it started.... What will 2005 HRB entries bring?
 

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Dean Weimer said:
Nice deer Scarlet. That 2005 buck is a beauty. Are you also practicing "QDM", or similar, on your land?? Did you take all 3 on the same land???
Been practising QDM since 1993.............things have just went nuts though in the last 4 years.......I mean NUTS! (especially the last 2 years) The videos of our bachleor groups have gotton "silly big" ( buck #'s and rack size) and the trail timer pics we have coming in just keep you up at night. These bucks were all taken on different properties...........but all had QDM in place since at least 1995. Crazy thing is.......this years buck also came a "stones throw" from public land.
 

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Joe, Excellent job. I can't wait to try and print this info off to share at the taxidermists and the scoring sessions I'm at. (You talk about a lobby group for the OBR, you should talk to the taxidermists in the state. We go into a recession after 911 and they are still filled to the brim with work. Maybe I should consider a career change?) Dean if this doesn' appear some time soon in Indiana Game and Fish I'm going to kick your ***! No excuses about how they wouldn't print it either. A good journalist will get it in. To me this is front page news.

Cut-N-Shoot,

The "dormant" time you are talking about was probably when the DNR still had the program. Not their fault that no one worked with it for awhile, how can they when "the great" cogressman Evan Bayh stripped them of all money they had to work with? Anyway, that's another topic for another day. What I want to let you is that many, and I mean many, of the deer harvested in that time frame have been scored and recorded. Ask the scorers at the Indy and Fort Wayne shows. Better yet, get approved to be an IDHA scorer yourself. That way you can monitor us "corrupted" scores and see just how we twist the numbers to match our hidden agenda of supporting the OBR. We have all the reasons in the world to do that since we make so much money scoring deer. (For those of you who do not know, scrores are volunteer and not allowed by the by-laws of Boone & Crockett or Pope & Young to take money for scoring an animal. The Hoosier Record Book also does not allow the accepting of payment for scoring.)
 

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jbwhttail said:
I would expect quite a few entries from 2004 scored this year also. the numbers will change.
I've got an entry from 2004 hanging on my wall that is not official yet. Just have not had a time when my schedule worked out to have it scored. Hopefully that will happen sometime this year.
 

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Scotty Don't

Scooter,
You forgot to mention that it is also the only org. in which you can be fired from, while only a volunteer. You also forgot to mention that our DNR is one of the ONLY ones that doesn't head up the Record Buck Program. In 1993 the DNR stopped coordinating the program because they didn't want to do it anymore. There were literally dozens of hunters who hadn't received there certificates from years back. John Bogucki has since cleaned up the mess that the DNR left. And to think that he is ONLY a volunteer?????
Once again go to the Iowa DNR website, Ohio, etc. and see how they post all of the record bucks on their websites. Why doesn't our DNR care about the Hoosier Record Buck Program??? Don't know. They started it in 1975, but then gave up on it.
The reason that more HRBP entries haven't shown up from years prior to the mid nineties is because...THEY DIDN'T EXIST IN THE NUMBERS THAT THEY DO NOW BECAUSE DOES FAR OUTNUMBERED BUCKS AND THE AGE STRUCTURE OF BUCKS WAS POOR.

Which leads me to ask this question to all naysayers...Why did Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, Kansas etc. produce so many record book entries during the years when Indiana did NOT????????????????
 

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By all means Dean write an article. Be sure to use correct numbers though and don't just write what someone else posts. Any good writer VERIFIES, VERIFIES, VERIFIES.

I've corrected Mr. Whitetails' numbers. My corrections are in RED. By all means check mine as I can see that you didn't check his.

Remember the 2002 season was the first for OBR.



CNS - How could we ever forget? ;)

Mr. Whitetail posted...


1992 195 entries.... base line

1993 148 entries.... -24%

1994 191 entries... -.02% -
-2%

1995 210 entries...+.07% -
-7%

1996 160 entries...-1.8% -
-18%

1997 159 entries...-1.8% - -
18%

1998 170 entries...-1.25% -
- 13%

1999 208 entries...+.06% -
+ 7%

2000 213 entries...+.09% -
+ 9%

2001 229 entries...+1.75%-
+17%

2002 277 entries...+2.16% -
+42%

Now how can this be? The FIRST year of the OBR and these guys killed 42% more trophy bucks than in 1992? Did not those bucks grow to their trophy stage in the two years prior to the OBR? Does that not say THEY WERE ALREADY OUT THERE? All one had to do was hunt them.

Granted more people held out that year, but as Mr. Whitetail said,"If they aren't out there you can't kill them!"

2003 331 entries...+69.75%- + 69%

2004 326 entries...+67.70%- + 67%


Look at the trend people. From 1999 to 2004 it was exponentiallygrowing and increasing in entries. 7% in 1991 with a growth of 20% from the previous year. Then 9% in 2000...then 17% in 2001..then 42% in 2002. These were all bucks that were ALREADY OUT THERE and growing prior the OBR.

That is a TREND that has continued to this very day.

These are actual numbers as of January 10 2006. Now folks can (and will) say that hunters today are more record book knowledgable and want entered. I can say that we have never turned a deer down that would make the minimum. We allow any deer taken in the past and by who ever brings it in to be scored.


I have no reasson to doubt your numbers, but your percentage math is WAY off.

Then you post - "In 2005 we had over 500 entries into the HRB of which 326 were killed in 2004."

That means 124 were take in prior years.

Proof positive that these people that are now trying to get their names in a book are pulling those deer down off the walls for yesteryear to get them registered. Yep, new and renewed interest in the record bucks and doing a little bragging.

Thanks for the numbers. Although I do not believe that record book entries is the only piece of very variable data for determining and age shift they are interesting.

What we have here people is a takedown of the herd in the mid 90s (see harvest numbers) by the IDNR (phase one of QDM) and then the hunters are getting older and more selective (Phase two of QDM).

Couple taht with more and more hunter practicing QDM on their private properties and the young deer hunters starting out being brought up on "big buck videos" one can see where we are arriving at a point where we are today.

Look to the other states and see that this is happening EVERYWHERE. It is NOT just an Indiana phenomenon.



 

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Verify what???

When have I not used correct numbers???

Any good writer verifies. You asked me not to personally attack you earlier...

What am I supposed to verify?????

Are you jealous of my writing??? I don't understand you Cut N Shoot.

by the way...I'm still waiting on you to show me where Joe Bacon disagreed with my harvest article from last year. Remember, the numbers I got for that article came from the DNR website. Should I have gotten those numbers elsewhere??

I am now more convinced than ever before that you are clueless.
 

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Scott Werstler said:
Cut-N-Shoot,

The "dormant" time you are talking about was probably when the DNR still had the program. Not their fault that no one worked with it for awhile, how can they when "the great" cogressman Evan Bayh stripped them of all money they had to work with? Anyway, that's another topic for another day. What I want to let you is that many, and I mean many, of the deer harvested in that time frame have been scored and recorded. Ask the scorers at the Indy and Fort Wayne shows.


I was not casting stones at anyone about the dormant time period. I am fully aware of what the IDNR went through in the "Bayh years". It is VERY relevant to this discussion as the "data gathering" ceased during that time. Now you may think that you got all of those entries recorded, but I have serious doubts. You might have caught a lot of them, but not as many as you would have got if the program had never ceased to begin with. It is VERY flawed data to compare today to then. That is unless that hunter has a new or re-newed interest in trophy hunting and wants his name in a book enough to go get that 1992 buck and pay $10 to enter it..

Jbwhttail and you are sending different messages. He says the present recording of record number of bucks has nothing to do with people new interest in recording their name in a book and you are telling us that they have enough interest to go get that buck they shot in 1992 and bring it in.

Which is it? A new interest in record books or not?

Better yet, get approved to be an IDHA scorer yourself. That way you can monitor us "corrupted" scores and see just how we twist the numbers to match our hidden agenda of supporting the OBR.
PLEASE - Let's keep this civil and don't try to put words in my mouth. You put quotation marks on "corrupted" scores. Please show me where I said anything about "corrupted scores"

We have all the reasons in the world to do that since we make so much money scoring deer. (For those of you who do not know, scores are volunteer and not allowed by the by-laws of Boone & Crockett or Pope & Young to take money for scoring an animal. The Hoosier Record Book also does not allow the accepting of payment for scoring.)
Once it was asked of a record-book keeper why if a record book is to honor an animal why is the hunter's name included? Would not it suffice to have the scores, date and location of the kill?

The answer -"We couldn't sell any books then."

I have no problem with selling the record books and charging $10 or $25 to register a deer, but to say that it doesn't provide an income is not true.
 

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When have I not used correct numbers???

Any good writer verifies. You asked me not to personally attack you earlier...[/qoute]

Not a personal attack at all.

Where have I ever said that you didn't use "correct numbers"?

What am I supposed to verify??
jbwhittails' numbers.

Are you jealous of my writing??? I don't understand you Cut N Shoot
.

What makes you ask that?

by the way...I'm still waiting on you to show me where Joe Bacon disagreed with my harvest article from last year. Remember, the numbers I got for that article came from the DNR website. Should I have gotten those numbers elsewhere??
You'll have to ask another poster that question, because I never brought that up. Try CambyGSP.

For what it is worth.. your numbers were 100% correct in the article. That was never in dispute by CambyGSP.

But ask him, not me..
 

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Record Bucks??

He meant to write corrupted scorers. Where did we ever say that the HRBP did, or didn't bring in an income. We have to take in money, otherwise we can't print the books every few years. You seem to think we have some agenda and are willing to fudge numbers to "prove" or "disprove" that the OBR is working. The reason more record bucks turned up after 1995 ( or slowly increased after this time period ) is that the doe harvest increased. More bucks began to live a year or two longer because of this. Why can't you accept this as true??

Cut N Shoot, do you have any bucks in the record book??
 
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