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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hoosier record Book Program Entries


Can anyone spot a TREND on these BEFORE the OBR?

Sure can. Plain as day isn't it?

Number of HRBP Entries by Year









Percentage Change for HRBP Entries from a 1992 Base







HRBP percentage of yearly harvest





There is no denying it that the big bucks were out there and we were killing more and more of them EVERY year BEFORE the OBR.






 

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CutnShoot:

I want you to please respond how in 1996 the largest harvest of Whitetails and the highest population ever was so low? And this was under two bucks?

You are graphing back to 1992 when you said 1992 wasn't avalid point and couldn't be used?

Everyone reading the graphs and my numbers need to keep one important fact in mind.

EVERY YEAR prior to 2002 had the opportunity to take two bucks. Where are those bucks? If they were out there why did they not get taken? And we had more hunters then.

Woody keep trying to find the smoking gun.......

I thought you also received the harvest graph, did that not meet your agenda?
 

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jbwhttail said:
CutnShoot:

I want you to please respond how in 1996 the largest harvest of Whitetails and the highest population ever was so low? And this was under two bucks?
If you will remember that was the time period when we were doing our "brown is down" thing. The "Unintentional" Phase One of QDM by the IDNR..

You are graphing back to 1992 when you said 1992 wasn't avalid point and couldn't be used?
Not my graphs, Joe. You knew that. I'm just looking at the TREND form 1997 to today. Very vivid isn;t it?

Everyone reading the graphs and my numbers need to keep one important fact in mind.EVERY YEAR prior to 2002 had the opportunity to take two bucks. Where are those bucks? If they were out there why did they not get taken? And we had more hunters then.
....and we were killing them in ever increasing numbers form 1997 on.. right?

I thought you also received the harvest graph, did that not meet your agenda?
I never recieved a "harvest graph'. I recieved a "percent of harvest" graph and it is posted here. It is the third graph.

They were out there weren't they Joe??
 

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Illinois vs. Indiana all-time

How do you explain this people? Tonight, since there is much, much data to type on here, I am only going to compare Illinois and Indiana's archery Typical top thirties (Top 30 All-Time). If time allows, I'll compare other(s) (i.e. firearms typ. and N.T.). The Illinois info. comes from the 2004 version (which is most current) of "Illinois' Whitetails", and the Indiana info. comes from the latest 2004-2006 edition of Indiana's HRBP record book titled "Recollecting Nature's Miracles". These two books are each states' equivalent to the other.

Indiana's Top 30 Archery Typicals Illinois' Top 30 Archery Typicals

195 1/8 (1985) 204 4/8 (1965)
182 4/8 (1985) 196 6/8 (2000)
181 3/8 (1989) 195 2/8 (1999)
180 6/8 (1990) 193 4/8 (1983)
179 6/8 (2001) 190 1/8 (2000)
178 5/8 (2001) 189 3/8 (2000)
176 7/8 (1997) 188 7/8 (1995)
176 2/8 (1997) 188 3/8 (1999)
175 4/8 (1991) 187 0/8 (1994)
173 7/8 (1990) 186 4/8 (1994)
173 1/8 (2001) 185 1/8 (1990)
172 4/8 (1982) 185 1/8 (2003)
172 2/8 (2001) 184 5/8 (2000)
172 1/8 (1989) 184 5/8 (2001)
172 0/8 (1995) 182 4/8 (1997)
172 0/8 (1978) 182 2/8 (2000)
172 0/8 (1982) 182 0/8 (1999)
172 0/8 (2001) 182 0/8 (2002)
171 3/8 (2001) 181 7/8 (1986)
171 2/8 (1995) 181 5/8 (1968)
171 0/8 (1985) 181 3/8 (1993)
171 0/8 (1976) 181 3/8 (1993)
170 6/8 (2001) 181 3/8 (1991)
170 2/8 (2000) 181 2/8 (2002)
169 1/8 (1976) 181 2/8 (1997)
168 5/8 (1999) 181 2/8 (1997) not a typo
168 2/8 (1995) 181 2/8 (1996)
168 0/8 (1999) 180 7/8 (1999)
168 0/8 (1999) 180 4/8 (1991)
167 7/8 (1990) 180 1/8 (1995)

Will hopefully have more time tomorrow to do some more...

Oh yes, The above graphs do really show something that totally stands out to me...That the numbers of HRBP entries began to increase dramatically starting in 2002. Isn't that the year that the OBR began????? Your graphs are loaded by the way.

By the way, you're wrong to say that bunches of HRBP bucks have always been out there. YOU CAN'T SHOOT WHAT ISN'T AVAILABLE TO SHOOT. HRBP SCORING BUCKS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AVAILABLE, JUST NOT IN ANY NUMBERS. BECAUSE....THE FIREARMS SEASON WAS AT THE WORST TIME IT COULD POSSIBLY BE: DURING THE RUT WHEN THEY ARE MOST VULNERABLE.
I've said it at least one hundred times...The reason more bucks began to show up around 1997 is because some hunters were harvesting more does, which took pressure off of our bucks for the first time ever. LESS DEER+ MORE BALANCED BUCK:DOE RATIO=BIGGER BUCKS BEING HARVESTED. Your graphs don't prove what you think you are proving to people on this site. Nice try....again!!!

Why is Illinois producing so many more giants than we are, and still have a two buck limit?????Can you graph why our neighbor is totally blowing us away, and has been for years and years and years??????
 

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Indiana vs. Illinois Archery Non-Typicals

If the typical list didn't "convince" anybody of anything, then feast your eyes on this list... I'll make this just the top 20 in each state.

Indiana Illinois

212 3/8 (1988) 266 4/8 (2003)
206 2/8 (2003) 254 6/8 (2001)
203 7/8 (1987) 251 6/8 (1999)
199 3/8 (1990) 250 4/8 (2000)
196 6/8 (1987) 245 5/8 (1981)
195 4/8 (1982) 238 0/8 (1995)
193 6/8 (1979) 234 4/8 (2000)
193 4/8 (1996) 234 1/8 (1995)
193 4/8 (1999) 233 6/8 (1999)
192 7/8 (1979) 232 4/8 (1993)
192 6/8 (1994) 231 4/8 (1986)
190 3/8 (1999) 230 6/8 (1984)
187 5/8 (1986) 229 0/8 (1995)
186 1/8 (1992) 227 5/8 (2002)
185 5/8 (1977) 226 6/8 (2000)
185 0/8 (2001) 225 4/8 (1993)
182 6/8 (1996) 224 0/8 (1989)
181 6/8 (1990) 222 7/8 (1989)
181 3/8 (1984) 222 5/8 (1994)
180 1/8 (2001) 220 6/8 (1979)



????????? Why is this?? How could this be??
 

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You fellas are making deer hunting way too political, come out from behind the podium and watch a Monster Bucks video or clean your tackle box out.
GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!!!
 

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Everyone one here is correct.

1) Moving the gun season and shortening it would work wonders. Look at Iowa, Illinois, and Ohio. However, I feel this is the hardest thing to get passed through legislation. So hard in fact that I have quit talking about it. If anything we are going the other way with a possible early youth black powder season, etc. etc.

2) The OBR is working. People with great hunting spots and lots of cover like places in Noble county, Stueben county, and southern Indiana may not see a difference from the OBR. However the guys hunting small timber pockets out in the flatlands have found heaven with this new rule. Why can't the big timber guys go along with it? Their hunting hasn't gotten worse. If it is that important for you to be able to shoot 2 140 class deer than let me propose something very controversial (also something I don't agree with). Make the OBR county dependent like the doe harvest. Look at the record book and if they record high numbers of big ones then eliminate the OBR. If they don't, keep it in. Sorry Noble county, you don't have a chance. (This ought to get some good discussion going, huh boys)

3) The doe harvest has helped too. Meat hunters took pressure off the bucks and I know this let some live and get older as Cut N Shoot is showing with his up swing in HRB bucks. However I think this trend is turning upwards faster now due to the OBR. I am ok with shooting a few does, but I am still not convinced with hitting them as hard as the DNR allows. Answer me this. As far as I know, Ohio is allowed 1 buck and 1 to 2 does per hunter for the entire season. With this doe harvest much lower than ours how do they keep from being eaten out of house and home with the exploding deer population it would create? Why do they still take big deer?

4) Antler restrictions would work too. Look at Pennsylvania and Kentucky. However again I think this would be impossible to pass in legislation, hard to enforce, and very difficult to explain/teach to my 8 year old son when he is looking to tag his first buck in a couple of years.

Just my observations.
 

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I have to agree that the gun season falls at the worst time possible if you are looking at managing your herd. This is a season when every weekend warrior is out in the field pushing deer from farm to farm, shooting at deer running full bore accross open fields. Most of the bucks are taken opening weekend. Most years the gun season comes in right during the beginning stages of the full rut. A very bad time of year if your a mature buck with a clouded mind set. Kinda like 3 am at the local pub, guys chasing anything they can find LOL

If gun hunters are really serious about our mature buck population, then they would not mind if the gun season be moved, shortning isn't really fair, but moving it 2 weeks one way or the other would help the buck population. I mean bow hunters gave up a buck tag, now its time for gun hunters (I included) to buck up (no pun intended) and do their part to help our state mature buck population.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
90% of the hunting land in Indiana is private.

If a landowner/leaser wnat the gun season out of the rut all they have to do is not hunt it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Dean

As an industrial safety specialist for umpteen years I found out rather handily that you do not compare on entity against another to guage progress. Too many varibles.

Illinois has a two buck syetm and back not too long ago archers could buy as many buck tags as they wanted.

We need to compare with OURSELVES to see where we are going, not someone else.

I also believe you said soemething about Michigan and their second bcuk being a restricted antler and them not measuring up to us. Isn't Michigan's rule two bucks with any weapon? IOW - They can kill two with a gun if they wanted to. Another variable.
 

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CutNShoot said:
90% of the hunting land in Indiana is private.

If a landowner/leaser wnat the gun season out of the rut all they have to do is not hunt it.
So you are suggesting that I can then hunt with my shotgun, long-range pistol during bow season, or muzzleloader season??..............and the 90% of privately owned land is hunted 100% by the actual land owner.....nobody else??........or are you suggesting that the people that hunt on this 90% of private land stop hunting if they do not agree with the state set hunting seasons??......or are you suggesting that the people of Indiana that rely on private landowners to let them in to hunt just stop hunting on the state set dates, but then hope the state sets a different time for them to use their "firearm" weapon somewhere in the future??? Or are you suggesting that you do not acknowledge state set set dates as what has the most impact across the state and we can actually get those "permission dependant" hunters to accept the fact that we private landowners will not let them hunt during a state set season??

Please elaborate on what you mean here............I can only guess what it implies.
 

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CutNShoot said:
As an industrial safety specialist for umpteen years I found out rather handily that you do not compare on entity against another to guage progress. Too many varibles.

We need to compare with OURSELVES to see where we are going, not someone else.

.
So you are trying to tell us that as a person that relies on data to make decisions, you only took into account what happened on the inside of your company and not what was happening at "outside/other" companies to determine if you were "successful" in what you were measuring?????

Yowzzzzzzzzzza!!!

I think it's pretty clear that internal and external benchmarks/data are what help us make the best, clearest, most educated and rational decisions. But.......if your "internal company" has already self determined that they have the "best, clearest, most educated and rational decision" making process in place...............

Prepare to live in a bubble and reap the consequences of your bubble environment.........and the "bubble city" will be named AGONY.

But some like that I guess.:rolleyes:
 

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Scarlet Dew said:
So you are suggesting that I can then hunt with my shotgun, long-range pistol during bow season, or muzzleloader season??..............and the 90% of privately owned land is hunted 100% by the actual land owner.....nobody else??........or are you suggesting that the people that hunt on this 90% of private land stop hunting if they do not agree with the state set hunting seasons??......or are you suggesting that the people of Indiana that rely on private landowners to let them in to hunt just stop hunting on the state set dates, but then hope the state sets a different time for them to use their "firearm" weapon somewhere in the future??? Or are you suggesting that you do not acknowledge state set set dates as what has the most impact across the state and we can actually get those "permission dependant" hunters to accept the fact that we private landowners will not let them hunt during a state set season??

Please elaborate on what you mean here............I can only guess what it implies.
You completely missed it.

The state does not mandate that anyone must have a gun season at all on their property.In fact in some places the landowner/leaser ground is bow only.

Some landowners don't even allow hunting at all.

The state sest the parameters by which we must stay within, but we can go LESS, if we want to.

Again - if you own land and don't want to gun hunt the rut - DON'T..

But don't try to force others to gun hunt out of the rut with a new state mandated rule if you don't already do it yourself.

To do otherwise is hypocritical.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Scarlet Dew said:
So you are trying to tell us that as a person that relies on data to make decisions, you only took into account what happened on the inside of your company and not what was happening at "outside/other" companies to determine if you were "successful" in what you were measuring?????

Yowzzzzzzzzzza!!!

I think it's pretty clear that internal and external benchmarks/data are what help us make the best, clearest, most educated and rational decisions. But.......if your "internal company" has already self determined that they have the "best, clearest, most educated and rational decision" making process in place...............

Prepare to live in a bubble and reap the consequences of your bubble environment.........and the "bubble city" will be named AGONY.

But some like that I guess.:rolleyes:
No, what I am saying is that you can look what others are doing but to say that every state (or company) should have the same results is idiotic. WAY TOO many varables involved.

Comparing office workers and foundaries workers and saying that the heat stress cases should be the same is an example. Extreme , but an example.

BTW Dean...

Are you saying if we got to a two buck rule like Illinois we can get whoppers too.You know that they can kill two bucks WITH A GUN OVER THERE??
 

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Not only can you kill two bucks with a gun in Illionis....the residents pay less to hunt their deer than Indiana resident hunters pay to hunt Hoosier deer.

There is also LOTS of private land controlled by outfitters (private business) in Illionis. On lots of those lands they don't even allow firearm hunting....and the bowhunting is also VERY controlled. Controlled to the point of....if the hunter shoots something that is deemed too small....they will pay a HEFTY fine to the outfitter.

On the up-side....Illionis is not that far away.

If your in love with their deer hunting, the drive aint all that bad!
 

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CutNShoot said:
But don't try to force others to gun hunt out of the rut with a new state mandated rule if you don't already do it yourself.

To do otherwise is hypocritical.
So what would you call continueing to force everyone to gun hunt in the rut with current state mandated rules? Fair?

And don't go off saying/labeling "I've missed your point" again............Missing your point and Not Agreeing with your point are two different things. To label me as one that missed your point when it is a matter of agreement that you appear you are after................ain't gonna happen..........at least with that tactic CutnShoot.

Those that continue to hunt Bucks during our State Set Rut Hunt are not "hypocritical"...........they are just smart enough to know they better hunt during the time the cards have been laid out and the state says "play"........they hunt when opportunity knocks because they have to or be left out by State Set Hunting Seasons for Firearms.

I guess it really all boils down to how much you support the idea of more mature bucks, and what it takes to grow them at a STATE level CutnShoot........and still provide ample opportunity to those that could care less how old or the size of the rack on their buck is, along with regulation to enhance the opportunity to those that care about their age/rack structure.

Both are possible..................

...............but not by standing back and saying "just don't hunt the rut on your land during your only Firearms season....and if you do hunt in the rut you're a hypocrite".

Yup...........that would get as far wouldn't it.:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
You are still missing it.

You want to impose your will on others that you are not willing to do yourself voluntarily.To say "I'll do it if everyone else has to do it" is hypocritical. If one TRULY beleives in it he would already be doing it on their own land.

The IDNR gives landowners GREAT latitude in managing the deer on their properties. They even had it where you could cull a buck without burning your one and only buck tag. That is gone now..

Don't want guns/bows in the rut? Don't do it. Wait unitl MZ and late bow seaosn to hunt that mature buck.
 

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CutNShoot said:
You are still missing it.

You want to impose your will on others that you are not willing to do yourself voluntarily.To say "I'll do it if everyone else has to do it" is hypocritical. If one TRULY beleives in it he would already be doing it on their own land.

The IDNR gives landowners GREAT latitude in managing the deer on their properties. They even had it where you could cull a buck without burning your one and only buck tag. That is gone now..

Don't want guns/bows in the rut? Don't do it. Wait unitl MZ and late bow seaosn to hunt that mature buck.
1) So where then do you suggest those that those that "sit out" the firearms season (as you suggest) then hunt with their firearm later in the year??

2) Where is there regulation besides OBR that helps the idea along of more age structure in our herd STATE-WIDE?

3) Are you suggesting that our regulations are "good enough" with OBR in place for more mature deer and any other regulation to enhance more mature deer is a waste of time/effort?

4) What would you call continueing to force everyone to gun/firearms hunt in the rut with current state mandated rules? Surely you would not call it "imposing" or "forcing" would you.:rolleyes:

5) By moving the Firearms Season out of the rut what is to be "lost" in your opinion? What would the guy that just wants "meat" lose out on and what would the guy that just wants to shoot small/any bucks lose out on?

6) Do you support more regulation for more mature bucks or less regulation for mature bucks in this state..............I'm still not clear on your position on this CutnShoot. It is clear you have an agenda...........all men do........I'm curious to understand what your "stand" is for.
 

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Wow, you guys really get fired up. I knew mentioning not gun hunting during the rut would get you gun hunters fired up. Now I have my answer I was looking for. Your willing to impose a rule that will favor more bucks in the field for gun season but not willing to give up any of your opportunities in order to better the bucks. No offense meant, as I am a bow and gun hunter, just calling it as it is.

Hey I would give up hunting all weapons during the main rut period if it really would help the buck population. I have no problem with that. Seems whats good for the goose isn't for the gander. I mean if you all are as serious about increasing the buck population then I would think you would be willing to make concessions that would help.
 
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