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I Just dont understand

Discussion in 'Indiana Whitetail Hunting' started by trdtnlbwhntr, Aug 2, 2006.

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  1. To me it seems to prove what all the OBR supporters have been saying the whole time doesnt it? . Read it for yourselves its kind of lengthy but it proves our point for us doesnt it??

    Herd Population Dynamics....
    « Thread Started on Today at 9:33am »
    [size=-1][​IMG][/size]Posted by a friend of mine on another site..

    "You have to understand how herd population dynamics work. As herd density increases, herd health decreases. And as herd health decreases, fawn production and survival decrease. A doe population will actually produce the maximum number of surviving fawns at 50-60% of maximum herd capacity. In essence, when there are fewer does, they actually produce more surviving fawns than a higher doe population would.

    Of all the plants out there deer will eat, only a small percentage are high-quality food sources. Most plants are only moderately nutritious and there's a bunch of things deer will only eat if nothing else is available. When herd density is low, each deer gets to eat primarily those limited high-quality food sources, hence each deer is extremely healthy and fawn production per doe is maximized. As herd density increases (through fawn production), those top-quality foods get eaten up, leaving only the moderate quality food sources. Now each deer has a diet consisting of less of the high-quality foods and more of moderate-quality foods. Herd health declines and fawn production declines per doe. But since there are more does around, they can still produce more total fawns than the fewer ultra-healthy does could. Once density begins to max out (due to reproduction), the deer only have the low-quality survival foods available. All of the top-quality and moderate-quality foods have been eaten out of existence. Now herd health is very low--just above survival limits--hence fawn production is extremely low (the does are still getting pregnant and having fawns, but the vast majority of fawns die soon after birth due to low birth weights, lack of milk production in the mother, and abandonment by the mother--a common response to nutritional or social stress). This large number of does are now producing very few surviving fawns. In fact this large number of under-fed does are producing fewer total surviving fawns than the moderate density herd did.

    That is why biologists/managers watch fawn recruitment rates very closely (along with doe body weights per age-class and lactation rates). Fawn recruitment is often a very good indicator of herd health (as well as predation rates). An adequately fed deer herd, that has access to adequate cover to hide their fawns from predators, will display a fall-season observed fawn recruitment rate of around 80%, which means there are 8 surviving fawns for every 10 adult does. However, an over-populated, under-fed herd--with many more total does than the adequately fed herd--will have a fawn recruitment rate below 50%. I've even seen herds with fawn recruitment rates of only 5-20% (1 to 4 surviving fawns for every 20 adult does).

    What I'm getting at is, in much of the Southeast, to maximize fawn production you actually have to kill more does (lower the herd density down towards that 50-60% of maximum capacity). I know this sounds strange, but that's the way deer herds work.

    Most hunters assume fawn production is a given. It is not. It is a function of herd health, and poor herd health--most commonly caused by poor nutrition due to over-population--can cause very low fawn survival."

    P.S I didnt want to say anything over there and start the whole debate all over again. So i thought it best to bring it by some level headedness and then maybe post over there.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2006
  2. Question


    May I ask you a simple question?? Why are you trying to "pit" one Hunting Forum against another??? Are you just trying to stir-up something because your life is too boring? Please, reconsider your posts & threads, as such, so you won't start an argument here or elsewhere. I am certain the Moderators here & there would appreciate your cooperation. Let just discuss Hunting as it is suppose to be discussed in a Hunting Forum. <Thanks>:)

  3. Yes, Traditional, this proves that the OBR (in addition to a sustained and continued doe harvest) is an excellent way to properly manage our herd here in Indiana. As such this is hunting talk; and argument is good; either here or there. We all know about proper, 21st Century deer management while many, many, many others do not. What's worse is that some misinformed individual(s) continue to spread more heresay and misinfirmation.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2006
  4. Other Site

    I am relatively new to this site, and I have read a lot of posts while only posting a few myself. I am not sure what the other site is, can someone fill me in.
    I enjoy reading the posts for both humor and education. I have learned a lot that I didn't know about quality deer management. I will have to thank most of you for that, especially Dean. I don't know any of you personally, but Dean seems very knowledgable on this matter.(I'm sure he'll catch a lot of sh-- for me saying that from all of you that do know him and harrass him often). I have not and was not in favor of the OBR until I became more educated on the matter. Now I am a believer in the OBR. I also stated in my first post several months ago that I have never shot a doe in my 13 years of hunting whitetail. The main reason for this is probably ignorance more than anything, but the guys who taught me how to hunt were firm believers in that practice. You only know what you are taught. I have discussed many ideas with them that I have learned from this site mostly. Guess what, I am going to be going for a doe this year in archery season. and I believe they may be also.
    Thank you for the education. I'll try to respond more often as I do enjoy this site. Good luck to those in the trail cam competition. I am looking forward to seeing some good pics to get me fired up for the '06 season. Any of you from the Fort Wayne area?
  5. WTHunter. First off Thanks for understanding that I've only expressed my thoughts, etc. one this site to help folks. If you don't currently subscribe to North American Whitetail magazine, I encourage you to do so. You see, things like doe harvest being taboo, are old school thoughts that are no longer relavent to today's, modern deer management. This old school thinking is a relic of "traditional deer management". Under the TDM guise, does were protected to allow herd growth. Harvesting bucks only, does absolutely NOTHING for the stabilization of a deer herd long term. While probably necessary "Back in the Day" TDM is hopefully gone forever. Many hunters in Indiana are finally coming around to the idea of shooting does....but, make no mistake about it, If the state goes back to a multiple buck format the herd will gradually grow until it is out of control all over again, and with it the problems associated with herds that are overpopulated (skewed buck:doe ratios, poor reproductive conditions, crop destruction, messed up rutting of name only a few).

    What most people don't understand is that some states have managed their herds in the past to appease hunters (who in turn pay for the deer tags). As you know, license sales are the backbone of many states' DNR budgets. Biologists who aren't affiliated with any state, or political entity, call this "kettle management", named after the fact that hunters just want something for the kettle. People don't understand that when less deer exist in an area that this is a good thing...not a bad thing.

    Too many misinformed hunters out there think that OBR supporters are just trying to grow big bucks, which isn't true. A huge percent of the OBR supporters are some of your more educated deer hunters who are well informed in today's changing deer management. The simple fact is that mature bucks are a direct result of proper deer management. And also, the fact that some of us choose to hunt mature bucks is no CRIME.

    Look at the states around us that have had proper management strategies for many years (see: Illinois). Their herd is in great shape and has been for many years. The fact that they produce so many more giant bucks is a testament to this management. If it was such a bad thing then why is Illinois' deer herd the talk of the Country?
  6. Please close this thread immediately, it has gone as far as it should.
    WThunter, my prayers are with you.
  7. I agree! <Thanks>
  8. Rowdy


    You mean there are other forums for Indiana outdoorsman?? Who cares, why shop around when you've already got the best.
  9. I could offer you a personal consultation on your land Scooter. I'll do it for a fraction of the fee that I'd normally charge.:cwm27:
  10. You don't want to go there me. It is an excercise in futility.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2006
  11. Nutritional needs

    I think it is important to add what nutrional needs of a deer are.

    Anything that is above a deers head does nothing for nutritional needs. Corn and soy beans are only seasonal. Feed a deer corn and you can starve him to death. Nutritional needs are browse which makes up 65% of the intake on a whitetail. Too many deer in any given area will create a browse line, when that happens it is YEARS before nature could repair the damage.

    My point is, before someone says agriculture supports our deer herd here in Indiana........ it is only the dessert on their dinner table.

    I'll leave the site vs site alone......... there is censorship, and others don't.
  12. WThunter, you seem like a nice guy. There are lots of us on here from the greater Ft. Wayne area, so I'm sure you'll have the chance to meet a few of us in time.

    Please in the future avoid saying anything that may cause Dean's head to swell (ie, Dean seems knowledgable) you see, he's an underpaid writer and can't keep going out to buy new hats with the Mrs. Doe Pee logo.
  13. Found this interesting on Woody's site..........they have a hunting contest each year and Woody says he thinks this site is full of "Antler Worshiping Arm-chair biologists" that know nothing about how to manage a herd..........

    Well.........take a look at this (which is posted on Woody's site from last years deer contest he is in charge of on his site)..........



    20) Weedhopper - 4 Point Buck- 9 Points
    Grappledad - 7 Does - 35 pts - Spike buck - 7 points, 8 point buck 13 points
    Team total – 64 points


    9) Buck Eliminators
    Hoosier Hunter - 6 Point Buck - 11 Points, Doe - 5 Points
    Woodmaster - 8 point buck - 13 points, 11 Point Buck - 16 Points, 9 Point Buck - 14 Points
    Team total – 59 Points


    15) Stinky River
    Stinkychomper - 8 Point buck - 13 Points, 9 Point Buck - 14 Points, Doe -5 Points
    riverjim -
    daworz - 11 Point Buck - 16 Points, Doe - 5 Points
    Team total - 53 Points


    5) Varmint101 - 2 Does - 10 Points
    Mbogo - 8 Point Buck - 13 Points
    fowlhunter - 2 Does - 10 Points, 14 Point Buck - 19 Points
    Team total – 52 Points


    11) The Horn Harvesters
    Woody Williams - 8 Point buck - 13 Points
    hornharvester - Button Buck - 5 Points, 6 does - 30 points
    Team total – 48 Points

    Here is the link for the entire list...........

    The Fifth place team calls themselves "The Horn Harvesters".............but we here on this site are the "Antlerworshipers", as Woody has called us many a time.........And Mr. Woody himself it appears will not shoot Does................but we on this site are the "Armchair Biologists" that do not know how to manage a herd.

    I think I am going to vomit.............
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2006
  14. if my name was hornharvester and i was in a contest i sure would be proud as heck to turn in a button buck.:dizzy:
  15. Unsure

    Hey guys. Woe Woe Woe. I'm not trying to get rowdy, stir the pot , or cause any trouble. I'm just trying to get more knowledge on a sport I am passionette about. I don't understand closing a thread because of a comment I made, and unsure of which comment it is that upset that person. Hell. it could be that I have never taken a doe before or that comment I made of Dean's knowledge. Not sure. Cut me a break as I am a "rookie" of internet forums.
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