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BREWERSVILLE OUTFITTERS said:
...Hay guy I see you have joined the other SITE...How was it that you were invited There???Did WW invite you like you said there???Hmmmmmmmmmmm:coco:
yep sure did.i got an email.just look at my join date here and joiun date there and it is very simple to figure out.not that would be easy for you..HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 
James Lyon said:
I see this all the time: the "because that's the way it used to be" reason. You're contention is that the OBR had absolutely nothing at all to do with the increase in HRBP entries over its trial period? Not even maybe a little bit? The entries are increasing every year, and you can now shoot a plethora of does...why is it so important to return to the two-buck limit? Will a two-buck limit be enough, or do you want three or four or ten? I know what I have seen over the last four years and what I saw the thirteen years before that. All I have to do is go down to my local check-in station and look at the picture album from over the years. The OBR period (the last two years in particular) shows many, many more pictures of large, healthier-looking deer than any of the previous years. You may use your "anecdotal evidence" and "common sense" to say that the OBR had nothing to do with it, but I know for a FACT that a two-buck rule had nothing to do with it.
once again NO ONE and i mean NO ONE has given a half way intelligent explanation as to the jump in HRBP entries in the first year of OBR.those deer existed already.now would someone please explain to me how that happened.the OBR has very little affect on the increased amount of mature bucks.physological effect?that is lame.it is 95% of hunters practicing QDM and self imposed trigger control that is responsible.as far as DR. Alt speaking at the seminar,who set that up?the IDHA?HHHHHHMMMMMMMM???????????speaking of the IDHA what a huge joke.i joined once.sent my money in.my check got cashed but i heard nothing,received nothing at all except for a cashed check.thank you for letting me join but no asking for any input.what a professionally run organization:bonk: i want to thank the IDHA for stealing my money.they claim they represent the hunters of this state but obviously that is a huge lie.how can you represent the sportsman of this state when you make absolutely no effort to get your paying members involved?
 
Theeeeeeeee bottom line.............

hoosierhuntinful said:
the OBR has very little affect on the increased amount of mature bucks.
Show me...............yes, SHOW ME and the rest of this planet where there has been a jump in the amount of mature bucks being taken in Indiana Deer Hunting History over a 4 year period like there has been taken in the last 4 years with OBR in place.

How's that for some "common sense".
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
once again NO ONE and i mean NO ONE has given a half way intelligent explanation as to the jump in HRBP entries in the first year of OBR.those deer existed already.now would someone please explain to me how that happened.
Some of us (through speculation) have tried to address the cause for the increase in HRBP entries from 2001-2002, but you have turned a deaf ear to those suggestions. Whether they're right or wrong, they ARE speculations, but they are NOT unintelligent. So, you tell us (since you're so good at shooting down the explanations of pro-OBR guys) the reason for this jump.

hoosierhuntinful said:
the OBR has very little affect on the increased amount of mature bucks.
How do you know?

hoosierhuntinful said:
physological effect?that is lame.
Classy...

hoosierhuntinful said:
speaking of the IDHA what a huge joke.
So start a thread about the IDHA; don't hijack this one to wage a war with members (or presidents) of that organization.

It's become clear to me that pro-OBR and anti-OBR guys will probably not come to agreement on this issue. It is a moot point arguing either side, because we (yes, "I" am included in that "we") are too hard-headed and set in our ways. I'm lettin' it go...

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hoosierhuntinful said:
once again NO ONE and i mean NO ONE has given a half way intelligent explanation as to the jump in HRBP entries in the first year of OBR.?
Before I take the time to answer............can you at least let me know what I'm up against so I am considered in the "upper half" of intelligent explantations. Seriously...........you want "intelligent explanations"........tell us how you qualify them as intelligent.

At this point I am not trying to see what I have highlighted in red as a "dig" or "taunt" towards the members of this site...........giving you a chance to prove you are actually open to "our" explanations..........but at the same time not "writing them off" before they are even typed.

Just trying to clarify if your here for "hostile" intentions or "good" intentions.
 
Wow. Here and I thought that this was a forum for like minded people to get together and discuss a sport that they love. I'm just a newcomer here and I have no agenda or vested interest in Indiana deer hunting but it seems to me that instead of coming here to ask questions and get answers, instead some people just want to use the forum as a means of advancing an agenda.

I've spent a lot of time reading about deer managment and studying all of the different methods that are available. Let me say right now, that while I think I have some pretty good ideas of how a good mangement program should work, none of my convictions are set in stone. Show me some scientific data that contradicts my beliefs and if it can stand up to scrutiny I'll be the first to admit that I was wrong and that the new data indicates something different than what I formerlly believed.

Some people posed some questions and got some reasonable answers. If you choose not to accept those answers fine, thats your priveledge but I'm getting the feeling that maybe some people were not really interested in getting any answers in the first place.

Hoosierhuntinful, as far as the psychological impact being lame, where is your degree in psychology from? I have a BA in Psychology and I'd be happy to discuss with you the types of motivating forces that can cause certain behaviour in people.

If people are seriously interested in exchanging information and having an intelligent discussion I'm happy to participate but if the purpose is simply to throw out provacative topics and then make diatribes about them then we are all wasting our time.
 
Munsterlndr said:
Wow. if the purpose is simply to throw out provacative topics and then make diatribes about them then we are all wasting our time.
100% lock this one down and lets get back to buisness. Season is right around the corner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
Dean i didnt realize you were a writer.who do you write for?i subscribe to NAW,deer&deer hunting{IMHO the best deer mag for biology and research]bowhunter and indiana game&fish
NAW, I G&F, Whitetail Hunting Strategies....

Hoosier, The IDHA is run by some seriously good folks. Joe Bacon catches a lot of S*&t , but he's very knowledgable on many issues that most of us aren't. I don't know what happened with your money, but I'd bet if you talked to Joe, or any of the other folks over at IDHA they could give you a plausible explanation. When I first joined the organization back in the late 1990s I didn't recieve anything for awhile and I was upset. I finally talked to Perry Smith about it and got the issue resolved. One thing you have to remember is that groups like the IDHA, HRBP, and others are run by individuals (like yourself) who are totally volunteering their time and energies. These folks all work 40 hour jobs and vulunteer their time for a great cause. I pay my dues every year (which I'm actually late on right now....Sorry Joe:) !!) and recieve newsletters and other literature that deals with current events, etc. I'm betting if you contacted Joe, or someone else that they could help you in regards to membership. Explain to them the situation....
 
Scarlet Dew said:
Show me...............yes, SHOW ME and the rest of this planet where there has been a jump in the amount of mature bucks being taken in Indiana Deer Hunting History over a 4 year period like there has been taken in the last 4 years with OBR in place.

How's that for some "common sense".
once again where did those big bucks come from in the first year of OBR.that is common sense
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
once again where did those big bucks come from in the first year of OBR.that is common sense
Hoosier, Up until the Mid 1990's, if you remember, harvesting does was on a lottery basis. The fact that the gun season was bucks only (for the most part) caused the male segment of Indiana's herd to be overharvested all across the state for years and years. Couple this with protection of does and you have a recipe for a herd to grow out of control (which it was in many parts of Indiana).

When I first started hunting in the 80s this overpopulation was very evident, but since I was a teenager who just wanted to kill a deer it was great to see bunches of deer (although most were antlerless). It was nothing to go out and see 15-20 antlerless deer and not see hardly any bucks, let alone a big, mature buck. Just to see a buck was a treat. But, even in this overpopulation some bucks, no doubt, are survivers and slipped past hunters and eventually were shot. This is why we saw very few truly huge bucks prior to this time period. They literally were non-existant in large numbers.

As you know, groups in the state (farm groups, insurance groups, etc.) asked the state to step in to alleviate the problem with this overpopulation. I think 1995, or 1996 was the first year where any individual hunter could by tags over the counter for the first time ever for their county. From about the mid 1990s to the beginning of the OBR, the herd was hit hard and many, many does were killed for the first time period ever in Indiana.

Here is what happened....as the overall herd decreased and females were eliminated en mass the overall herd density decreased ( less overall deer). And at this same time the states' buck:doe ratio began to slowly come closer together ( it was better than it used to be anyway). When a deer herd is reduced causing a density to decline individual members of the herd that survived were eating better, etc. because of this herd reduction. It's well documented that mature, "trophy" bucks come from herds in which the densities are lowered, and does are continually harvested. While the state didn't open up the doe system to specifically cause a better buck:doe ratio, or try to produce "trophy" bucks, this is exactly what happened.

In about the 5 years that preceded the initiation of the OBR I personally began seeing better bucks in my hunting area than ever before, and started to see more bucks in relation to the number of does that I saw. I can remember my farmer saying the same thing. He commented that you rarely used to see very many bucks, but he said things like "It seems like for every doe I see I'm seeing darn near as many bucks now".

You obviously can't deny that in this same time frame that hunters acrossed Indiana (and the continent as a whole) began to practice better deer management as the mass media began to "educate" darn near every deer hunter out there. People began to pass those 1.5 year old bucks that they had harvested in years past. Not all hunters, but enough to help more bucks survive from year to year.

I've seen you ask why the age structure improved prior to the OBR, and it is first and foremost because of the reduction in the herd as a whole, which drove up the average size of bucks and does. The OBR has just intensified this improvement even quicker than it would have under a two buck system.

My question is, if we go back to a two buck system will hunters still pass up young bucks? What I fear the most is that hunters will go back to the mindset of shooting a young buck first, and then "trophy" hunt. And if many hunters fill their freezers up with bucks, will the doe harvest drop? To me, this is the real threat of going back to a two buck structure. Will enough does continue to be harvested? Will overpopulation become the issue that it was in the past over time?
 
the only explanation on the jump in the first year of the OBR in HRBP entries is that a 2.5 y/o buck was making the 140 minimum score.how many support this theory?if not for that theory than where did these deer come from?my explanation is alot more hunters are practicing QDM and letting immature bucks walk and shooting does.QDM is catching on around the country.even alot of hunt clubs down south are practicing QDM.a standard rule is a 15 inch spread and 8 points.if a buck is shot that doesnt meet this standard than a fine of $250 is levied against the member.but yet the shoot multiple bucks and the age structure is improving.yes alot of these clubs have 5000 acres leased and you can manage a deer herd on that many acres where as here i hunt land that averages 100 acres.MO has a 2 buck limit and yet more and more mature bucks are being shot there every year due to self imposed trigger control.ILL has a 2 buck limit.does anyone know the limit in Kansas?keeping the herd below carrying capacity of the habitat by shooting does and high protein food plots and letting bucks mature is the technique used to increase the age structure.it is happening all over the country and most states have multiple buck tags
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
the only explanation on the jump in the first year of the OBR in HRBP entries is that a 2.5 y/o buck was making the 140 minimum score.how many support this theory?if not for that theory than where did these deer come from?my explanation is alot more hunters are practicing QDM and letting immature bucks walk and shooting does.QDM is catching on around the country.even alot of hunt clubs down south are practicing QDM.a standard rule is a 15 inch spread and 8 points.if a buck is shot that doesnt meet this standard than a fine of $250 is levied against the member.but yet the shoot multiple bucks and the age structure is improving.yes alot of these clubs have 5000 acres leased and you can manage a deer herd on that many acres where as here i hunt land that averages 100 acres.MO has a 2 buck limit and yet more and more mature bucks are being shot there every year due to self imposed trigger control.ILL has a 2 buck limit.does anyone know the limit in Kansas?keeping the herd below carrying capacity of the habitat by shooting does and high protein food plots and letting bucks mature is the technique used to increase the age structure.it is happening all over the country and most states have multiple buck tags
You're right, but don't discount the fact that states like Iowa, Illinois, and Kansas are producing even more than most of their neighbors by 1) having a shortened firearms season, and/or 2) holding the firearms season post Rut.
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
the only explanation on the jump in the first year of the OBR in HRBP entries is that a 2.5 y/o buck was making the 140 minimum score.how many support this theory?if not for that theory than where did these deer come from?my explanation is alot more hunters are practicing QDM and letting immature bucks walk and shooting does.QDM is catching on around the country.even alot of hunt clubs down south are practicing QDM.a standard rule is a 15 inch spread and 8 points.if a buck is shot that doesnt meet this standard than a fine of $250 is levied against the member.but yet the shoot multiple bucks and the age structure is improving.yes alot of these clubs have 5000 acres leased and you can manage a deer herd on that many acres where as here i hunt land that averages 100 acres.MO has a 2 buck limit and yet more and more mature bucks are being shot there every year due to self imposed trigger control.ILL has a 2 buck limit.does anyone know the limit in Kansas?keeping the herd below carrying capacity of the habitat by shooting does and high protein food plots and letting bucks mature is the technique used to increase the age structure.it is happening all over the country and most states have multiple buck tags
I agree with some of what you write here, but how many license holders in the state of Indiana know the benefits of self-imposed trigger control, and even if they do, are they disciplined enough to do it? You and I do (which I think is proven by the fact we are on a sportsman's site discussing it), but I don't think the majority of license holders do.

Oops...I said I was lettin' it go.:banghead3

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hoosierhuntinful said:
once again where did those big bucks come from in the first year of OBR.that is common sense
Those bucks came from hunters that would not practise QDM type restraint unless "forced to think about it". There is your answer..........And now we have 4 years under our belt confirming that QDM no matter how much it was already in place in this state...........just got 10X better because it forced those that would never consider letting a buck walk since "this would be their only shot".........................TO THINK ABOUT IT..................

...................And now the numbers show that year after year those that chose to "Think About It".............DID JUST THAT.............and the HRB and PY numbers show what they chose here in this state during this 4 year "thinking period"............

...........and you're here on this site to bitch about that???.........and you proclaim you're a proponent for QDM????? You're ticked that the state has just recruited who knows how many more for QDM type behavior???:16suspect

Or are you just here for another purpose hoosierhuntinful.........


You still haven't answered my question.............

Scarlet Dew said:
Before I take the time to answer hoosierhuntinful............can you at least let me know what I'm up against so I am considered in the "upper half" of intelligent explantations since you state you don't get "half intelligent explanations on this site". Seriously...........you want "intelligent explanations"........tell us how you qualify them as intelligent.

At this point I am not trying to see what I have highlighted in red as a "dig" or "taunt" towards the members of this site...........giving you a chance to prove you are actually open to "our" explanations..........but at the same time not "writing them off" before they are even typed.

Just trying to clarify if your here for "hostile" intentions or "good" intentions.
Please explain..........
 
Scarlet Dew said:
Those bucks came from hunters that would not practise QDM type restraint unless "forced to think about it". There is your answer..........And now we have 4 years under our belt confirming that QDM no matter how much it was already in place in this state...........just got 10X better because it forced those that would never consider letting a buck walk since "this would be their only shot".........................TO THINK ABOUT IT..................

...................And now the numbers show that year after year those that chose to "Think About It".............DID JUST THAT.............and the HRB and PY numbers show what they chose here in this state during this 4 year "thinking period"............

...........and you're here on this site to bitch about that???.........and you proclaim you're a proponent for QDM????? You're ticked that the state has just recruited who knows how many more for QDM type behavior???:16suspect

Or are you just here for another purpose hoosierhuntinful.........


You still haven't answered my question.............

Please explain..........
i already explained this by telling you[i am typing slow now]by pointing out the date i joined this site and "the other site"
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
i already explained this by telling you[i am typing slow now]by pointing out the date i joined this site and "the other site"
However, you've been a member of this site for a year, and you didn't post anything during that time. Then, one night, you post twenty times? Even Weimer isn't that much of a post-aholic. You'll have to forgive us, hoosierhuntinful, we're leery about "trollers" on this forum. Many times members have come in here (without ever introducing themselves) and began to write posts against OBR supporters, which the majority of major contributors are on this site. They are here to stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. They have hidden agendas and ulterior motives. I think you (although maybe incorrectly, maybe not) have been lumped into the category of "troller" by many here. I sincerely hope you prove us wrong. I hope to talk with you about hunting (or fishing...I LOVE to fish) in a more personable, amiable way in the future.

P.S. The "i am typing slow now" comment was Busch League.

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Dean Weimer said:
Hoosier, Up until the Mid 1990's, if you remember, harvesting does was on a lottery basis. The fact that the gun season was bucks only (for the most part) caused the male segment of Indiana's herd to be overharvested all across the state for years and years. Couple this with protection of does and you have a recipe for a herd to grow out of control (which it was in many parts of Indiana).

When I first started hunting in the 80s this overpopulation was very evident, but since I was a teenager who just wanted to kill a deer it was great to see bunches of deer (although most were antlerless). It was nothing to go out and see 15-20 antlerless deer and not see hardly any bucks, let alone a big, mature buck. Just to see a buck was a treat. But, even in this overpopulation some bucks, no doubt, are survivers and slipped past hunters and eventually were shot. This is why we saw very few truly huge bucks prior to this time period. They literally were non-existant in large numbers.

As you know, groups in the state (farm groups, insurance groups, etc.) asked the state to step in to alleviate the problem with this overpopulation. I think 1995, or 1996 was the first year where any individual hunter could by tags over the counter for the first time ever for their county. From about the mid 1990s to the beginning of the OBR, the herd was hit hard and many, many does were killed for the first time period ever in Indiana.

Here is what happened....as the overall herd decreased and females were eliminated en mass the overall herd density decreased ( less overall deer). And at this same time the states' buck:doe ratio began to slowly come closer together ( it was better than it used to be anyway). When a deer herd is reduced causing a density to decline individual members of the herd that survived were eating better, etc. because of this herd reduction. It's well documented that mature, "trophy" bucks come from herds in which the densities are lowered, and does are continually harvested. While the state didn't open up the doe system to specifically cause a better buck:doe ratio, or try to produce "trophy" bucks, this is exactly what happened.

In about the 5 years that preceded the initiation of the OBR I personally began seeing better bucks in my hunting area than ever before, and started to see more bucks in relation to the number of does that I saw. I can remember my farmer saying the same thing. He commented that you rarely used to see very many bucks, but he said things like "It seems like for every doe I see I'm seeing darn near as many bucks now".

You obviously can't deny that in this same time frame that hunters acrossed Indiana (and the continent as a whole) began to practice better deer management as the mass media began to "educate" darn near every deer hunter out there. People began to pass those 1.5 year old bucks that they had harvested in years past. Not all hunters, but enough to help more bucks survive from year to year.

I've seen you ask why the age structure improved prior to the OBR, and it is first and foremost because of the reduction in the herd as a whole, which drove up the average size of bucks and does. The OBR has just intensified this improvement even quicker than it would have under a two buck system.

My question is, if we go back to a two buck system will hunters still pass up young bucks? What I fear the most is that hunters will go back to the mindset of shooting a young buck first, and then "trophy" hunt. And if many hunters fill their freezers up with bucks, will the doe harvest drop? To me, this is the real threat of going back to a two buck structure. Will enough does continue to be harvested? Will overpopulation become the issue that it was in the past over time?
i agree on almost everything you posted Dean.the doe permits were by lottery but not enough people even applied.we always drove to east enterprise in switzerland co. to buy the surplus over the counter at the momnpop store there.my position is the 1.5 y/o bucks bowhunters are passing up are still being shot by the gun only hunters.if memory serves me there is only a 5% difference in amount of the buck harvest.spread that percentage over the entire state and that is extremely minimal.i do hunt on some public ground[my buds have taken a 166 inch 10 point,a 144 inch 10 point and a 154 inch 8 point on a public land hotspot]ive been to this land during archery and very few bowhunters.but i went on the second week of firearms and the land was infested with gun hunters.i heard alot of shots and this was a buck only area.i seen the deer that were killed.they were 1.5 y/o and some 2.5 y/o bucks.the OBR made no difference to these hunters.is this situation the same on private land?no but alot of gun hunters still shoot immature bucks which is thier right to do so.alot of deer hunters are being educated by the mass media[as witnessed by all us arm chair biologists].but i doubt if the gun only crowd subscribes to many,if any hunting mags.and i wholeheartedly agree that the herd used to be highly unbalanced.when i started hunting in 90 i jumped deer on my way to my stand,always seen deer in my stand and 90% of the bucks i seen were 1.5 y/o.heck i used to hunt 10 foot high in a baker climber[those were scary]and still get shots off at deer with my bow and actually hit a few.sorry im trying to address all your post but im not that puter savy and dont know how to do it in the fancy grey qoute boxes that you do.makes my replies seem disoriented but i scroll up and read then scroll down and answer.and yes a lower deer density makes for an overall healthier herd including larger bodied deer and bigger racked bucks.i used to see alot of spikes but i see maybe 1 a year now and that is directly due to better more abundant natural browse and food plots.and yes OBR makes bowhunters think about the shot now.but the vast majority of those bucks get taken in firearms season.but at the same time as the herd was being reduced QDM started taking effect and that worked hand in hand with more mature bucks being the result.IMO this trend is continueing and the more hunters who practice QDM and more and more are that is what is resulting in more mature bucks.but also gun only hunters who hunt uncle freds land or cousin kevins land are still shooting immature bucks.but landowners who bought land just for hunting,and im blessed to hunt this land are practicing QDM.please dont think im trying to rag on gun only hunters.they have the right,and i support thier right to shoot any legal deer they want. QUOTEPeople began to pass those 1.5 year old bucks that they had harvested in years past. Not all hunters, but enough to help more bucks survive from year to year.QUOTE yes your exactly right but this was happening before the OBR.it happened to me and my buds and most likely you.i got a collection of immature bucks but i wanted more so i,and you most likely before the OBR,quit shooting them.a doe tastes better than a buck anyway.and yes i love eating wild game.deer jerky and a colts game go together very nicely.quote This is why we saw very few truly huge bucks prior to this time period. They literally were non-existant in large numbers. quote back in 86 when my friends bought thier land they killed a 3.5 y/o 10 point and a 3.5 y/o 9 point.the next year a 147 inch 3.5 y/o 17 point was killed.the following year a 3.5 y/o 11 point was killed.the following year a 3.5 y/o 10 point was killed.but all only scored in the low 120,s due to a high deer density.that is quite a few mature bucks taken on only 117 acres.but alot of 1.5 y/o bucks were killed also and the amount of mature buck sightings dropped.then we increased or doe harvest and practiced trigger control and the buck sightings increased again.these bucks dressed at about 165-170 pounds.the 12 point i killed in 04 dressed at 215 but this is due to a decreased herd.so mature bucks were existent back then but not as healthy as now. QUOTE My question is, if we go back to a two buck system will hunters still pass up young bucks? What I fear the most is that hunters will go back to the mindset of shooting a young buck first, and then "trophy" hunt. And if many hunters fill their freezers up with bucks, will the doe harvest drop? To me, this is the real threat of going back to a two buck structure. Will enough does continue to be harvested QUOTE the buck harvest for archery is existent but not substantial.the ones that get passed and i passed alot before the OBR get shot by gun hunters.but your concerns here are legitimate.until the mid-nineties i had the mindset of shoot a buck first then trophy hunt.but with the mass media educating me i started practicing QDM as alot of other all season hunters did.but once again i dont believe gun only hunters read as much as all season or bowhunter only do.
QUOTE From about the mid 1990s to the beginning of the OBR, the herd was hit hard and many, many does were killed for the first time period ever in Indiana. QUOTE
yes i agree with this and more and more mature bucks starting showing up.as you stated you started seeing this trend increase back then.and the more people that practice QDM the more this trend will continue.
what gun season do you faVOR?SHORTENING IT WHICH MEANS LESS DOE KILLED POSSIBLY?or making opening weekend both sex season then antlerless only.or some other method?point resrictions which work in Penn but alot of hunters that ive talked to dont like?
 
hoosierhuntinful said:
yep sure did.i got an email.just look at my join date here and joiun date there and it is very simple to figure out.not that would be easy for you..HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Hay guy just checked and WW has not been on this site ....Last on in May!!! Or maybe he changed his NAME Hmmm...so how did he email you???? :coco: :coco: :coco:
 
Dean do you know the percentage of the 1.5 y/o buck harvest starting in 95 compared to 05.i know the 1.5 y/o harvest used to make up 65% of the total buck harvest but it is now at 50% of the harvest.and that doesnt take into consideration the 10% of antlerless harvest being button bucks.i would like to see a year by year comparison of the 1.5 y/o harvest starting in 95 until 05
 
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