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This data is from Paul Vice an Indiana Bow Huntrers Association Member:



For those intersted, here are the official Pope and Young typical whitetail entries for Indiana between 1993 and 2004. The numbers are tracked per two year scoring periods.

I chose to begin in 1993 due to the implementation of the two buck rule that year (prior limit was four). Notice that the 19th scoring period (93-94) and the 20th scoring period (95-96) are nearly identical and should provide a good four year baseline. Percentage increases are based on the 100 animal average for those two periods.

19th scoring period (93-94) - 101 (baseline)

20th scoring period (95-96) - 99 (baseline)

21st scoring period (97-98) - 108 (+8%)

22nd scoring period (99-00) - 125 (+25%)

23rd scoring period (01-02) - 178 (+78%)*

24th scoring period (03-04) - 238/214 (+138%/114%)**

* One buck trial begins 2002.

** P&Y Club relaxes 65% let-off restriction in 2004. (There were twenty-four entries in this category. Only four were harvested prior to the 24th scoring period.

 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
averages



1999 9295 total archery bucks taken

2000 11121 total archery bucks taken

2001 12275 total archery bucks taken

2002 7617 total archery bucks taken

2003 9330 total archery bucks taken

2004 8280 total archery bucks taken

1999-2000 1:163.3 bucks make P&Y

2001-2002 1:111.75 Bucks make P&Y

2003-2004 1: 38.96 Bucks make P&Y

Folks one(1) out of EVERY forty(40) bucks taken in Indiana in 2003& 2004 were entered in Pope and Young with a minimum score of 125"!!!

And furthermore these were not 65%+ deer from other years.

1:40 bucks OUTSTANDING!!

 

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So those numbers are the deer *scored* in that period, not the deer killed in the period?????

Either way.......it sure shows what you are pointing out......folks hunting with archery gear, that were allowed the "bonus" buck.... were destroying the herd....right?

Just think whats gonna happen when those opening gun weekend cowboys get additional opportunity in October, yet are restricted to one buck per season.

We will kill more antlerless deer and those gun hunters will get more selective or stay home in November!

It's a GREAT plan.......all one has to do is look at the results Kentucky is getting, it's difficult to argue.

ONE buck per deer season

PLUS

Tons of opportunity and choices

EQUALS

EVERYONE becomming MORE selective....not just the bowhunters!

I think were on to something!!!!
 

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Golly... that shows another trend starting BEFORE the OBR doesn't it?

One would have thought that the number after 2002 would have been a LOT higher considering ANY 125 and up bow killed buck can be entered now, when in the past it had to be 65% let off and less.

You are aware that the P & Y changed their let off rule drastically don't you?

More variables to consider, but that doesn't seem to bother you..
 

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COMPARING APPLES AND APPLES
(65% let off to 65% let off and not 65% and 65% and above.

20th scoring period (95-96) - 99

21st scoring period (97-98) - 108 (+9 entries)

22nd scoring period (99-00) - 125 (+17 entries)

23rd scoring period (01-02) - 178 (+53 entries)

24th scoring period (03-04) - 238/*214 ( +36 entries)

The trend was up and up before the OBR.

Using the 65% let off standard the numbers actually went down (53 versus 36 = minus 17) from the 01-02 period to the 03-04 period.

The very first year that the OBR could make any difference at all in P & Y would be 2003.

The 01-02 entries just points out AGAIN that the big bucks were out there prior to the OBR.

"The OBR just came along at an opportune time"...

* - 65% let off maximum..
 

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More P&Y bucks= More P&Y bucks in overall herd

Looks good Joe, Just more proof of what we've been saying all along. Why weren't there more P&Y entries in the past...BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO BE HARVESTED.

Does anyone else see this obvious (common sense) increase????

YEP...the OBR did come along at an oportune time...and look at those results of it!!!!!

More mature bucks in the state of Indiana than any time in the past 50 plus years. Now that is PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now if we could only take the next logical step(s)..
1) Shorten the firearms season and hold it after the primary rut
2) Continue harvesting does

Than we could harvest the numbers of giant mature bucks like Illinois, etc.

Feel free to go to the other thread and check out what they've produced compared to us. And to think they allow more than one buck. Hard (not really) to believe.

If the IDNR does not want to shorten the firearms season, etc. then we need to keep the OBR indefinately.
 

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Dean Weimer said:
Looks good Joe, Just more proof of what we've been saying all along. Why weren't there more P&Y entries in the past...BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE TO BE HARVESTED.

Does anyone else see this obvious (common sense) increase????

....................
Are you looking at the same numbers we are??

The 2001 and 2002 P & Y bucks were there before the OBR came around weren't they?

23rd scoring period (01-02) - 178 (+53 entries)

The increase in 65% entries from the 23rd to the 24th was +36 entries and that is LESS than the increase of 53 entries from the 22nd to the 23rd.
 

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I can see!!! I can see!!!

Yep, I'm looking at the same numbers as you. How many times do I have to put on here the reason why the numbers of bigger racked bucks had increased before the OBR was instituted???

But one of the variables you will throw in the mix is that people are just now starting to get their bucks scored etc. because the HRBP is just now starting to be utilized by residents of Indiana right??

Attention to all HRBP scorers...Get ready for a flood of entries from prior to the OBR!!! Psssst, you can't shoot what isn't available to be shot. Sorry!!

Come on man, see it for what it is. It's O.K. to wrong fellas!!!!
 

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Was not the 2001 and 2002 P & Y bucks there before the OBR came around?

The 23rd scoring period (01-02) was 178 (+53 entries over the previous session)as opposed to a gain of 36 entries from the 23rd to the 24th.
How can anyone try and claim the bucks before the OBR as being the result of the OBR?
 

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YES, I have never said that the numbers hadn't started to increase prior to the OBR Cut. I've said it all along...You should start to see an increase in the numbers of mature bucks (HRBP, P&Y, B&C, etc.) not long after the doe system was opened up in the mid nineties. But, since the OBR the numbers have increased dramatically. What Joe said earlier is that all of the P&Y qualifying entries from 2004 haven't been scored yet.

You're right...more people are QDM minded now, and more people have recognized the importance of harvesting does, and people are more picky now (because they "have" to be under OBR...but, only if they want to be). Haven't I always said this??? I don't think that anybody doesn't agree that the numbers of mature bucks being harvested started to gradually increase before the OBR, but it is now a more dramatic increase than it was pryor to the OBR. Why are we arguing about this???
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
let's compare apples to apples



I know this is Hypothetical but just for the sake of CutNShoot and his theory that the bucks were gaining in pre OBR years........ If we add together the highest two harvest periods of antlered deer it would straddle scoring periods 2000 and 2001 (22nd & 23rd). If we take the total buck harvest for archery of those two years we come up with a number 23,396 as bucks harvested.

In that scoring period of 2000-2001 I want to give the total 25% increase to 2000, so 78 bucks made the 125" minimum. 78 bucks entered into the P&Y book.

2001,lets give the same. +78% or 158 bucks meet 125" minimum.

78+158=236 so we are just two(2) deer short of the 24th scoring period(2003-2004). a wash correct? WRONG!!!

The 2003-2004 scoring period had a total of 17,610 bucks taken. Or a difference of 5,786 deer. Or 1:82 bucks(those with less than 65% let off). 5,786 divided by 82=70 more bucks meeting 125" minimum.

Now if you compare the highest harvest two years to the last two years and compare numbers....... what was available?

OLDER AGE BUCKS!!!

CutNShoot?

Shouldn't we compare apples to apples? Remember you said the deer herd has increased, thus there are more bucks available. They were already there correct?

I'll take any two years you like and do same comparison....... you lose!

By the way can I just call you Woody, or WW? much less typing . And now that we all know you are one in the same it would seem more friendly.

 

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Dean Weimer said:
Why are we arguing about this???
Because two parties have made up their minds that they are BOTH right. One has good logic/facts......the other has twisted logic.....but BOTH think they have good logic.

Dean..........rest easy. You and "jb" have a following a mile long. Keep up the good work/fight/logic........I have showed this cite to 7 other people this week and even though they are not members (yet) have read these OBR threads over and over...........and thanks to Dean and jb, the "yes" vote for OBR just got another 7 deep in line........or maybe we should be thanking CutnShoot for making it possible for another 7 to quickly figure out what is truely sensible.........

................OBR !!! :coolgleam

 

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Yeah...that there what James Lyon said there.
 

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agree with Tree

Yeah...I would have to agree with Tree on that one, well said.

Eric
 

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Dean Weimer said:
YES, I have never said that the numbers hadn't started to increase prior to the OBR Cut. I've said it all along...You should start to see an increase in the numbers of mature bucks (HRBP, P&Y, B&C, etc.) not long after the doe system was opened up in the mid nineties. But, since the OBR the numbers have increased dramatically. What Joe said earlier is that all of the P&Y qualifying entries from 2004 haven't been scored yet.

You're right...more people are QDM minded now, and more people have recognized the importance of harvesting does, and people are more picky now (because they "have" to be under OBR...but, only if they want to be). Haven't I always said this??? I don't think that anybody doesn't agree that the numbers of mature bucks being harvested started to gradually increase before the OBR, but it is now a more dramatic increase than it was pryor to the OBR. Why are we arguing about this???
I don't think you can find any wildlife graph that shows a straight line progression up or down.

It is all accumulative, is it not?

All of this could have been done under a QDM education plan (and was being doien naturally to some extent), but some wanted an easy way out and got big brother to step in with more restrictions.

Again - You have the resources - loook to the other states and see what is happening there as far as the number of bigger bucks showing up. It ain't just happening here.
 

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Lets be honest. CUT you should be honest with yourself here. You are right in the fact that numbers are always going to rise and fall. So be it, but you keep preaching about the fact that before the OBR there were already bucks out there. So the OBR cant be working? Now we are seeing a greater number of these bucks which means the deer from before are living out their years and bucks from the OBR are reaching their peak. Once the OBR came into effect all those deer from the years past were "protected" from lack of a better term. Protected by hunters that were now forced to make a decision. Now they are living out their years and reaching potential. Which is why you see the first years of the OBR showing the numbers they are. Now that we are in the last years of the OBR the numbers are bursting at the seams. Doesnt that prove anything? I just want to know how you would discredit this and make it into something you want to believe.
As for the pick your weapon comment. It is just that. If a hunter wants to try to make deer hunting harder for himself then you will have the birth of an archery. If they want to make it easier, youll have a gunhunter. It is the hunters choice. If the archery numbers are dropping, then arent the bowhunters who are quitting in archery for the wrong reason anyways?
 

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Did you not take a real GOOD look at the comparison between ourselves and Illinois??? You are suggesting that the two states have both just begun to produce bigger bucks, but there is NO comparison. Illinois blows us away hands down. Illinois has NOT just started producing those bucks!!


I am a bow hunter and a gun hunter. Are you suggesting that I would be screwing myself if the bow season was to be extended to the latter part of the primary rut, and the gun season shortened. That is just crazy man!!! I am a DEER hunter (all weapons...hell I'd hunt with a pea shooter if we could get a pea shooter season).


Nobody is making light of any person/persons losing their livelyhood. I, for one, am not seeing anything like that here where I live. All of the archery shops in NE Indiana are alive and well. I have never once heard one person say they are giving up bowhunting because of the OBR. To me that is a silly reason to quit a sport that you are supposed to love and cherish.


Thanks for the support fellas!!! Dew, Mr. Lyons, Treehugger, etc. When are we going to go eat at the Bronson REstaurant. Frog legs, walleye, steak...Get R Dun!!!!
 
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